Lady C

I don't think it was a "one day" thing either. Something was going between them for quite some time and it didn't just happen overnight.

About the R&R Hall of Fame, I dissected this video before but Diana couldn't keep her eyes off Michael that night. After the brothers come onstage, Diana looks at Michael at 3:03 before she speaks to the audience. At 3:06 she looks at Michael again and waych his reaction at 3:08. He giggles and bends his knees. As Diana is talking about how she and Michael bonded, between 4:48-4:50 she looks over at Michael, stares at him for a few seconds and continues with her speech. She said "Michael, I..." I wonder what she really wanted to say to him but it's like she suddenly remembers where she is and comes up with the excuse "I don't see these guys that much." Look at Michael and the brothers reaction from 4:52-4:53 as Diana stumbles on her words. Looks like they got a kick out of that. At 4:54 Diana quickly looks at Michael again before she gives out the awards. Fast forward to 6:00 Diana looks to the side and Michael runs over to her. He must have been watching her because how would he know to walk over to Diana at that exact moment? They spend the rest of the time talking and laughing about something as Jermaine is talking to the audience.

Maybe Diana wanted to say, "Michael, I-I love you with all my heart and I think it's time we tell everyone the real love we had and still have between us." Michael walks over to the microphone. "Um, I know this is going to going to come as a shock to all of you but Diana and I were romantically involved years ago and even though certain things have come between us, I will never forget what we had and we will always love each other." (Members of the audience look at them in shock and confusion). Can you imagine if this really happened??

Lindethiel

If you can find confirmation from someone in Mike's or Diana's camp, or from someone who was there Gavin, I'll be more than happy to believe that's Diana on the set of ITC, but I can't take it on face value for me I'm afraid.

And yeah, I don't think they had a romantic relationship after Diana's marriage, Michael seems to have pretty high standards with some things, and I just can't see him being content with being the other man. If he couldn't have all of her, I think he would rather suffer in silence. Maybe then Diana felt really bad, knowing Michael wasn't going to give himself to her unless she left Naess in the dust and did everything properly. It explains her being upset and maybe even a little miffed when she said, 'All I know is what I read in the papers,' around that era. I think Michael was willing to forgive her, and of course always love her, because he carried a flame for her to the end of his days, but I think he forced himself to love her from afar. I don't think he would get involved with her again until he saw a serious act of dedication from her, something which I don't think she was very forthcoming on during the OTW and Thriller eras. While Michael knew he would do anything for her, I expect he wondered whether she would do the same for him and I don't think he would let himself get caught up in it again unless he saw that Diana had proved she would go the distance as well as him.

My fanfic pieces:
"Everywhere, All At Once." A long Oneshot about DR coping with June 25th.
(Note: Not a DR/MJ romance. LMP fans welcome. )

Lets harmonize all around the world...

encinogirl

Wow, so much to reply to!! I think it's so great that everyone is offering up their perspective on what they really think of M and D post-Naess, and timelines and stuff. It’s conjecture, but it's fascinating. I love reading all the different takes on it, and of course some of our views intersect. And thanks everyone for all the videos and pix. Man, those pix of Diana when she was younger, and where she was pregnant? Oh my god. Gorgeous.

I can't do all that quoting of everyone's posts so apologies if this is sloppily put together.

First, Lady C, I think your take (on p. 201) of Michael not wanting to take the risk of pursuing Diana again certainly makes a lot of sense. And that by the time Diana was divorced, they both had complications – Bashir, DUI, etc. I guess with a bunch of divorces behind them both, if they wanted to be romantic with one another, a formal marriage would not have been an attractive option. Rather, something more informal. But who knows what happened! And I didn’t know that Diana was still publicly saying she loved Naess after her divorce! I never heard that. One wonders if that was for her kids’ benefit, or a beard for her and Michael, or just unrequited love (denial!) on her part?

MJ / DR 4vr, it’s great to have a guy on here!! We need more! Yeah, it’s not hard to imagine M and D gettin’ it on after the WMAs! So you think Diana loved Naess? Why is this? Was she that vocal in the press?? And you’re a perceptive guy – Diana may very well have been one of the women who wanted a formal, clear declaration of love and marriage from Michael and without that, wouldn’t take him seriously. Definitely a possibly scenario.

Lady M, your point of view makes sense too!! I could totally see what you said happening, “Once again I don't say that they have stable and regular relationship I think it was something more spontaneous and impulsive... And maybe only when Diana was finally divorced that was something more stable...” And you say something interesting about Michael being with a married woman versus a married Diana, that he would view her differently than another married woman b/c it’s *Diana* and they had history. Hmmm..

Pilar, great use of pix to prove the point of Michael being childish with other women but not Diana!

Gavin, we respect you!! Hey I watched the Making of ITC and I saw the woman you meant. It looks like it *could* be Diana...do we know where she was at that time?

Gavin, You write: “I know how and what I believe. In fact I believe alot more than what I have shared with you guys. But I really probaley will never share those thoughts with you guys,because it would be futile. Listen I know it is hard to see this relationship as long term. Hey to really see it you will have to change the thoughts and the knowing of Mike that you have. What I mean by this is if WHAT I BELIEVE to be true,for many of you this would not be good. It would make Mike look like less,BUT THAT IS NOT true to me IT makes him more. BUT like Janet said the truth will come out you probaley will have to wait for it. And something tells me it will be sooner that later!”

You tease! Please share with us! We are all offering our thoughts. Is this to do with your comment that you think they weren’t the greatest love story, but rather a “roll in the hay”? No one is going to just dismiss what you say. As I’ve said, sometimes I can totally envision them as long-term and being very fluid. And I like the idea of them being very subtle over the years. I just hope that down the line it wasn’t Diana chasing Michael more than the other way around, nor that he let her down. Is that why you hesitate to share? I guess they would both have had their frustrations with each other over the years. Anyway, I’m fascinated that you think the truth will come out sooner rather than later. What is this truth? Does this have to do with a certain young man?

And Lady C, very interesting conjecture about what could have been disclosed at the R/R Hall of Fame moment! And good catch about how he joined her at 6:00.

LT, do you think that Diana's lyrics post-Naess were her way of telling Michael, "Hey, I *will* go the distance with you"? And do you think that after her divorce, he no longer wanted to be with her or things had just changed?

gavin 111

Gavin, we respect you!! Hey I watched the Making of ITC and I saw the woman you meant. It looks like it *could* be Diana...do we know where she was at that time?
There is no Adrian Grant in Diana life like there is in Mike's,DANG. The thing that makes me think she was there is what she did to Naomi Campbell at the 96 WMAs she hit her on the butt. Now I think everybody knows Naomi Campbell is kinda known for her temper. So it perked my interest that they knew each other and well also. If Naomi would not of liked her she would decked her on the spot!
Also this is something else I have found Pattie LaBelle and Diana or Mike or both there seems to be lots of public award show etc where she sings a tribute to Mike or then to Diana. Or she is just sitting in the front row at these occasions so I am thinking she is friends with Diana or maybe Mike. But she is there. She is almost a constant at these kind of events where they are??? Oh I was kidding about the respect
Lady C: I love that video of that event if you blow it up to 150% at the very beginning Jackie is very comfortable with Diana and then he notices or someone tells him the camera are on and he changes his whole demeanor changes watch- you will see. Also in the larger frame you can see a little more of what Mike is doing in the background with Diana.
LT:I think even if I had that kind of inside information it would take more. And I did show you.As to if you agree with what I had regarding ITC, or agree with if Diana was there or not well that's the way it goes. BUT I did show you.

Lady C

I just don't see Michael wanting to be the man on the side while Diana was married to Arne. He didn't seem like he would be willing to share or take turns. I think Michael was set in his ways when it came to Diana and he wanted ALL of her. He may have been willing to take that risk with Diana but if Michael could have his way, I think he'd want Diana to be his woman only. I am suspicious of their activities after the 1996 WMAs and the 1997 R&R hall of fame. Joe and Katherine may have been there but that didn't stop them before. (The 1984 AMAs). Looking back on the footage they were pretty bold in front of Joe & Katherine. Then again, what could they really do about it? I don't think Joe cared one way or another but Katherine may have had her suspicions.

gavin 111

MAYBE he didnt share? Maybe he had her all to himself,no sharing involved.

Lady C

You could be right. Diana and Arne didn't really live together so with Arne not in the picture, Michael could've had special moments with Diana.

Lindethiel

I dunno. I mean, the same way Diana probably wasn't too impressed with Michael telling everyone else he loved her and was going to marry her (assuming of course that he didn't tell her,) I doubt her declaring that to him in her music was going to cut it for Michael either. Even if those lyrics are all wonderful messages for him.

I agree.

What I mean by Michael not wanting to share, I mean Michael wanting HIS ring on her HER finger. Later on with Debbie and Lisa, he couldn't care less. But at this time, during the mid 80's, he was living by the book, as a very traditional, old school man. He wanted a wife and kids, he said that in his ET interview (it was an outtake,) and I think he wanted Diana for that role. In the Bad era he was branching out as an artist, but as for him personally, his morals really didn't start changing until the 90's, there abouts. When Michael finally started to put his foot down about how much people could have of him, I think he applied that to Diana as well, see below.

Michael had gotten to a place where he wasn't taking no sh!t no more. He moved outta home, tired of his family wringing him for money, he started distancing himself from Quincy so he could grow more creatively as an artist and he really started taking a pro-active approach to his career. As well as all that I don't think he was going to wait around for Diana to make a decision anymore. He still had a bit of maturing to do during the OTW and Thriller era, and I think by the time 1988 wound round, he'd completed that. It's like this...

Di: "I love you and it was a mistake, can we just go back to how we were."

Mike: "You know what? No, we can't. I'm not the same guy Diana, I'm tired of being taken advantage of, I know you love me, but no. You're not gonna find me throwing stones at your window in the middle of the night or leaving roses on your pillow anymore. I'm not doing it anymore unless you can show me that my efforts are going to be appreciated and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I've got all that in me, ready and waiting for you, but I'm not going to do it until you can accept all the love that I CAN give. Until then..."

Or words to that effect. Do I think they had a conversation like this, lol, no, no one speaks like that, but I do think that what I've written above was his stand point on it. So in a lot of ways he's being a hypocrite. While she waited for him to declare his love and all of that stuff to her face, now he's asking her of the same thing she didn't want from him. Michael told everyone else he loved Diana, she wanted him to tell her, Diana told Michael she loved him, but he wanted her to tell everyone else, they're opposites. But opposites attract. Plus she's gotta think about her kids.

Yeah, her lyrics could very well be a cry out to him, there are just too many there for it to be a coincidence in this case. After her divorce in 2000? I think Michael always wanted to be with her deep down, but like it has been said above, a traditional marriage and relationship would NOT have worked at that point in time. The two of them were too far out of sorts.

I think somewhere along the line, Michael squared with the fact that he and Diana were probably never going to be Mr and Mrs Jackson. Sometime in the early 90's I think, because that's when he started pursuing LMP, hinting that maybe he'd gotten over it enough to look for other companions in his life. Sure, I bet there were times he'd think, 'If only... it would have been so great,' but I think he really did come to terms with them not having a romantic future. But I think she was his greatest and longest love. Regardless of them being together, he loved her from day dot, to his last day and beyond. I think he was like, "You know what? Too bad girl, I don't care if I can't have you, I'ma stand over here and love you from across the room anyway!"

I've only just been able to have a look at that half hour long video of the 1984 AMA's (stupid file problems,) can we please go through them again?

I noticed that the earrings and necklace are there, along with the bracelet.

In the second part, at 9:52, is that when he says, 'I love you, princess.'? I can kinda hear it but that's what it definitely looks like. Then he hugs her and she laughs. Then at 9:57 he says 'I love you,' then pulls away and says, 'I love you.' My god, can you HEAR the passion in his voice? Then Diana looks at the camera, and Michael goes back to hug Lionel.

And then at 10:13 when Diana tries to hand him the award, what I originally thought was he was checking out her inner wrist, but it looks like he's just noticed the bracelet. That's how I noticed it too, when he saw it. (Thank you Mike!)

I also found the way Diana's leaning against that piano a little TOO casual. Like she's trying too hard to act like everything's normal.

And in the third part, around the 0:30 mark when Michael thanks his parents, the camera cuts to Joe and Katherine, and someone that may be Diana says something, and then says, 'Get up here you two.' Is this the right spot or am I just hearing things? Then at 0:48 Michael gives her a real quick look and Diana giggles. Michael goes on to thank his bros and Quincy and then at 1:39 him and Diana kiss, hug, and even step their legs in closer to each other. They pull apart and Michael gives the most fleeting, endearing look before she says, 'Welcome back.' Although...

Hang on, it almost sounds like, 'Love you back.'

Then Michael does his little Diana speech and Diana cuts him off with the dance teaching comment. (C'mon baby lets do the locomotion...) And then when Michael does his hero pose, does Diana say, 'Whoo hoo, go on, one more time.' As in, to do a little dance there again? Then as they're all waiting for him, Diana especially, he walks back and hands her back the award, then he walks ahead with Kenny Rodgers, then, oddly enough, doubles back to Quincy, who is now next to Diana. Quincy hangs back behind Diana as Michael slips right by her, (not facing her,) and then starts to walk and talk with Quincy.

I think it has to do with the walk way getting narrower, so only two people can stand abreast. And also, it might be Michael keeping things professional. He was clearly in more control of himself than Diana was. (Maybe she had a few champagnes backstage or something.) I think he's being massively business like about it all, that way, without words, he can remind Diana to do the same.

And at 9:13, Mike went in for the kill on that kiss! And so so sweet how he turned straight to Diana as soon as he finished his less that 10 word speech.

That's everything I can spot in the video, did I miss anything?

My fanfic pieces:
"Everywhere, All At Once." A long Oneshot about DR coping with June 25th.
(Note: Not a DR/MJ romance. LMP fans welcome. )

Lets harmonize all around the world...

gavin 111

Hang on, it almost sounds like, 'Love you back.'
GOOD CATCH LT,but you missed one more spot as Mike raises his arm up Diana say I Love SO much and then she walks behind the piano. And Barry Manilow is so confused. And I love the look on Lionel face and Quincy when Mike starts talking about all the special things Diana has taught him check it out. Its like Lionel and Quincy are both saying WAIT MIKE DONT GO THERE we are on national TV DONT TELL THEM WHAT special things she has taught you PLEASE!!! We will never do TV again if you do!!!!
PS HE also tells her she looks Beautiful as he pulls away after the first hug that when she looks at the camera all nervous.
Encino you are right I will show you something I found the other day:
This is in 1995-March Diana is being honored at the Soul Train awards,first you will see Patti Labelle she sings a Tribute(which I believe someelse arrainged the choice of songs and the words that were chosen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuagK4BZfDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqHhhQYSpGI
Now this is the interesting part notice what Patti does when she hugs Diana,Diana hug once BUT then Patti pulls her back and she says something to her @.40 mark then Diana says that comeon lets go up. Then as soon as she hits the top of the stairs@.53 she forgets Evan and she starts looking for someone WHO do you think is in the balcony?
Now I think Diana paid Mike back this is a award that Mike got:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FTjjpsJ9Zk
@ the 3:54 spot
OH AND check Ross out I think he see" Diana friend" in the balcony notice how he like gets a surprised look on his face.

encinogirl

I can't adequately join in on YT analyses at the moment as my audio isn't working. And watching that video of Michael as artist of the century, Gavin, w/o audio, I'm assuming that someone called out to him from the balcony, was it Diana? I'll watch/listen later when my audio is working.

I'm so confused!!!! Everyone's theories and interpretations sound very plausible!!! Everyone has valid points and insightful perspectives! Dammit, Michael, why did you have to be so mysterious?! Meanwhile, if Michael knew this thread existed, he'd probably be like Thank you all for contributing, it's helpful to hear.